Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Complaints and comments

I received a phone message yesterday from a subscriber angered by "front-page photos every day" of weeping Palestinians. Her point was this: Israel is being hit by rockets constantly, and we don't publish photos of weeping Israelis climbing out of the rubble; and if these Palestinians in Gaza are harboring these terrorists, then they deserve what they're getting.

A: First of all, almost all the death and destruction is happening in a small area of Gaza. Sure, rockets are being fired into Israel, but they go all over the place and usually don't hit anything or kill anybody. Yesterday, a house was hit, but no one was injured. It would be pretty difficult for a war photographer to guess where one of these rockets might strike in that they can reach about half of the country. And why would a war photographer be in Israel when all the fighting is in Gaza?

Secondly, there are about 15,000 Hamas militants in Gaza. They've taken over Gaza, and the residents there - 1.5 million of them - have little to say about it. Many of them support other factions in Palestinian politics, and many of them want nothing to do with politics or war at all. Most of them are innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire between Israel and crazy Hamas, fighting a proxy war for Iran.
There is a terrible human cost to war. Sorry, but it's our job to tell that part of the story too.

73 comments:

Suisun City, CA said...

Thanks for your kindness and compassion of the innocent Palestinians that are going through this deplorable genocide in our lifetime!

Suisun City, CA

Anonymous said...

So are we to understand that it is ok for Hamas to fire on Israel from Gaza and since so few Israelis have died that we should accept the constant barrage of rockets and do nothing to stop it? Unfortunately, the cowardly Hamas fire from heavily populated areas and put the civilians at risk. Why don't these people force them out? Is it because they have so little regard for life?

Anonymous said...

How sad! The front page of the newspaper publishes a young boy crying because his father, a Hamas leader, was killed by the Israelis. Did the boy cry when his father sent this boy's brother off as a suicide bomber?
Where is that photo?

Anonymous said...

I back Isreal with no hesitation. I hope they kill every fanatic, Hamas or otherwise, and whoever backs them. There has been no war in our lifetime without colateral damage. You get what you pay for and unfortunately someone, and who if not Israel, needs to teach it to the barbaric Palestinian morons who whine every time one of their own suffers. If someone in your neighborhood began to haphazardly and continually shoot a rifle in your direction and they would not stop; what would you do?

Park Burroughs said...

Don't know where you folks got the idea that I was defending Hamas or am somehow opposed to Israel defending itself. I was just explaining why the photo coverage concentrated on Gaza and why some people might have some sympathy for the those caught in the middle.
And if someone were shooting a rifle at my house, and killing my family, I don't think I would likely dismiss their deaths as "collateral damage."

Suisun City, CA said...

Yeah, I think your readers and most of the comments completely missed the point...and why am I not surprised?

The 2nd post:Israel has done plenty to stop the attacks...check out that Wall! Palestinians regard life--way too many families have directly or indirectly been affected by the occupation of Palestine. Its easy to have empathy for our friend, Israel, but Palestinians are ALWAYS made out to be the bad guys. Israel has nuclear weapons, compared to Palestine with rocks and home-made weapons.

Post 3: Way to assume something negative...

Post 4: Read a book. I cant comment on your post unless you can spell Israel correctly!

Anonymous said...

Jeez Park. I did not say anything about killing your family and I did not say anything about dismissing any death as collateral damage. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I might also note that I also understood that you were explaining why the photo coverage was concentrating on Gaza and I was at no time under the impression that you were pro-Hamas or arguing that Israel did not have the right to defend itself. Again, I am sorry for any misunderstanding. I guess I am just sick of people killing each other. Carry on.

Anonymous said...

Dear Suison City-

The word "genocide" according to Webster's Delux Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition, is defined as: "[...first applied to the attempted extermination of the Jews of Nazi Germany.] the systematic killing or extermination of a whole people or nation."
Sorry I mistyped "Israel" the first time I used it. Please note that I got it right the second time!
By the way, who the hell elected you Queen of the English Language, Princess of the Blogosphere, and the only person whose opinion is valid. Comment on that hotshot!

Yours truly,

Post 4!

Suisun City, CA said...

"Hotshot" kindly requests you SPELL Suisun City correctly before responding to your post!

Suisun City, CA said...

So, did you take issue with the use of "genocide" to describe this situation; because I know what it means. Aparteid is another option.

What made you assume I am female? You know what they say about assumptions...they make an ass out of you and me.

Finally, I never said my opinion was/is more valid than yours. However, I do offer personal experience in these matters...something I believe you lack or dont have any comprehension of. Its easy to read the paper (no offense, Park) or watch TV to see where allegiances lie in this crisis. That's why your comments aren't any different than the average war monger.

My perspective is different than yours and perhaps I can help 1 person understand this issue differently...

Anonymous said...

Suison City-

I may well be an ass but I am certainly anything but a war monger.

There you go again assuming that your personal experiences are more valid/important than anyone elses.

At least you didn't use any exclamation points

By the way is Suisun City, CA anywhere near San Fransisco and are you, or have you ever been, a school teacher? No offense Parker.

Peace, love, and smiley face
-Post 4

Suisun City, CA said...

Anonymous-

I have experience in this subject that allows me to feel comfortable commenting. Not all readers in the greater Washington County area can say they have relatives that are Arab, have traveled abroad to the Mid-East or ever discussed this issue with a Palestinian.

I am capable of constructing a sentence completed with correct punctuation at the end.

Yes, Suisun City is 1 hour from San Francisco (correct spelling) and is this relevant in any way?

I have 2 degrees, and yes, Education is one of them.

Are you planning on attacking my personal choice in advanced education or where I live now?

Anonymous said...

The first problem is that readers always gripe about any picture that depicts anything but happy puppies. Life happens all around us every day. Close your eyes, stop reading or stop watching TV is you prefer not to deal with reality. But ignoring reality won't change it.

As for the Middle East, violence begets violence. They are still refighting David Vs. Goliath. People there have been killing each other, often in retaliation and out of proportion to the original crime, for eons. Each side in the Israel-Hamas dispute had valid points, yet each is wrong. It's not going to stop. There will never be common gorund, which is something the US fails to see. And after eight years of blowing up Iraqis and Afghans, the US has little status a peace broker.

Anonymous said...

The last I read, Israel was banning journalists from taking pictures or shooting video footage of what is going on. So I am not sure how journalists are supposed to take pictures when they are banned. I wish we could find a way to show those pictures those because I think showing what Hamas is doing to Israel is just as important as showing what Israel is doing to Gaza.
Dawn

Suisun City, CA said...

Dawn,

I wish they allowed camera's in Palestine right now. I'm sure the world would be shocked at the situation and conditions. The Palestinian people who are not involved with Hamas would say they want peace and the ability to enjoy their lives like everyone else.
Most people have no idea of what conditions they have to endure (no water, electricity), checkpoints where the women are sexually harassed and brutalized by Israeli soldiers...do you need more examples?

The US aligns itself with Israel. For some reason we support them having Nuclear Weapons, and the Palestinians aren't allowed any weapons, at all. They are left to illegal guns, stones and handmade devices.

I dont support or condone the terrorists. I am able to understand why it seems that Israel is consistently defended and supported in this matter--showing favoritism.

And if the idea is let them fight it out...at LEAST make it a fair fight and let them both have the same weapons to kill one another.

I dont think that's the way to resolve this matter. I dont have any answers, but I do know that I have a pulse and this affects me. I also feel passionately about Darfur and animal rescue.

There are terrible things happening all over the world right now, and I would like to think that I had a positive contribution during my lifetime. I grew up in Washington and have family and friends amongst you.

My goal is to spread the good word! I hope that by discussing experiences I have had with others, it might open up the potential that somebody may think differently about a subject and get interested!

Thanks for the opportunity-

Suisun City, CA

Izzy said...

Suisun City Person: Please verify your source of information regarding Israeli soldiers sexually harrassing women. I'd be very curious to check its validity.
Your "fair fight" argument is a total absurdity. Israel was formed as a nation 50 years ago, and during that time, the Israelis have had the smarts to build a nation with a thriving economy, an innate sense of national pride, and a military force that is armed, willing and able to defend its right as a nation for a people that had been forced to be nationless for over 2,000 years. The "favoritism" being shown by nations are those allies who realize that Jewish people have a right to the homeland to which they were denied for so long. I watch with awe a nation filled with "Yiddishur kop" (smart people); let them live the lives of which they are so deservant. As we do in the USA, we are willing to share our nation with anyone willing to live within our laws. Israel, and its people believe in that credo. Explain to me any wrong
one can find in that set of beliefs. I believe its foundations are in writings called "The Ten Commandments". Well worth the read.

Ellipses said...

Izzy... the fact that Israel was formed 50 years ago with the full backing and support of the most powerful nation on earth kinda gives them a man advantage. The fact that the jewish people were nationless for so long is more a function of identifying with a religion rather than with a sense of geo-political unity... Which country serves as the Catholics homeland? Which country is defined by its naturally Baptist heritage? Nations are generally not secondary to the dominant religion. Sure, there are theocracies... but most Iranians are both Iranian and Muslim... if denied Iran, they would still be Muslim. If denied Islam, they would still be Iranian. If I follow your lead that the Israelis deserve their position of power due to their constructing their favorable position of their own volition, than would it not stand to reason that the Palestinians have first right of refusal of the land that is Israel due to the fact that they had an established Nation there and that Israel came into being due to a partitioning of Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state? Consider if the UN mandated the partitioning of Alabama into a Black Nation and a White Nation... Would displaced white people in Biloxi have a legitimate claim to the land now determined to belong to the Black Nation? Geopolitical development occurs most effectively in an organic way... it's a lot like economics in that sense-- paths of least resistance and all of that... When you try to buck trends and install a nation, you run the risk that someone is going to buck back. As we approach the century mark in the conflict, we start to lose sight of the fact that both sides' acts of aggression can be seen as a legitimate response to a former wrong.

Brant said...

Izzy, I'm just wondering if we should give all the land in the United States back to the Indians. Don't they have the same right to a homeland that they have been denied for so long?

Suisun City, CA said...

Izzy,

I believe that you believe your position is valid.

I am offended that you question my bringing sexual misconduct into the conversation. I'm confident it has/is happening. Just because Israel reports these incidents dont exist, doesnt make it true. Culturally, it would be the disgrace of a family if something like this was made public. Much like how we regard these situations in the USA.

Plenty of people experience sexual harassment/abuse in their lives; and dont make it a federal case.

The fact is you cant prove that I'm wrong.

I think that the posts from Ellipses and Brant are strong arguments. Neither is a terrorist or pro-Hamas!

Anonymous said...

Suisun City- It is impossible to reason with unreasonable people, like you.

Brant- Have you no knowledge of Indian Casinos? Have you ever been to New Mexico, or New York, or Connecticut, etc...? And yes I think we should give back land to American Indians where the good old U.S.A hasn't already done so.

Ellipses- Israel was formed 60 years ago, not 50. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the English had something to do with control of the land that is now Israel prior to 1948. As for which nation was the strongest in 1948, it is debatable.

"As we approach the century mark in the conflict, we start to lose sight of the fact that both sides' acts of aggression can be seen as a legitimate response to a former wrong."

Are you on drugs? What century mark? What former wrong?

The beginning and end of your comment, and for that matter the rambling incoherent middle, remind me of a soliloquy from Theatre of the Absurd. It is no surprise to me, Suison City, CA, thought it a strong arguement.

Izzy- May God bless you and may I apologize for all of my misinformed, fellow American, anti-Semites.

Ellipses said...

Anon... I was referring to the league of nations original mandate regarding the establishment of two nations out of the palestinian land.

We could go back to David and Goliath if you want... but I do think it is naive to think that Israeli history started in 1948.

I apologize for saying 50 instead of 60... that was a slip

Brant said...

That's right. When someone disagrees with your point of view, start with the name-calling. I am surprised that you didn't toss in a statement about Obama being a socialist and a Muslim. Just because I think our country should not blindly support Israel on every issue does not make me an anti-Semite. And the fact that I opposed the war in Iraq does not make me anti-American. Also, your comment about the Indian casinos was one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Do you really think that makes up for everything else? Has that solved all the drug, crime and poverty problems on the Indian reservations that we white folks created as virtual detention camps for Indians? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you have unwittingly come up with the answer for the entire Middle East conflict. Allow Hamas to open a casino in Gaza City, and peace and happiness will break out all over. Hah!

Izzy said...

Ellipses - Your argument is the core of anti-semitism. Jewish people are twofold in their heritage: their belief in their religion and their right a "citizens" (nicer than saying "race") to have a homeland, which is Israel. It is the birthplace of their "citizenship", as Itlty is the birthplace of Italian citizenship. There would not the flood of anti-semitism if Israel were a country with, say, a population consisting of 75% Christians. It's pretty clear (and extremely proud) that I am Jewish, buy both religion & birthright. Am I to say my ancestry can be traced to Russia, where my grandparents & father had to flee because of the polgroms? No, my ancestry can be traced to the times when our people were forced to leave our homeland. The fact that they were Jews only puts more hurt into the wound, today as is did thousands of years ago. I am an American by birth, an Israeli by race, a Jew by my choice to follow my forefathers beliefs. Way too complex for anti-semites to figue out.
Brant - YES
Suisan City - Show me the money!

Ellipses said...

Izzy... The fact is, EVERY race of people have been displaced at some point... I have nothing against Jews (I lack the ability to tell if someone is jewish unless they are orthodox)... but the fact of the matter is, my ancestors were displaced by the roman army and they displaced another group in their migration and settlement and so on and so forth.

I am impressed, though... since I have never been accused of being an anti semite... and I always marveled at REAL anti semites because they apparently have Jew-dar... I just can't see it I guess

Anonymous said...

IF I wanted to be nasty I could respond:

It's all about money with Jewish people!

But since I am trying to debate a position (not communicating with oral speech, but typing to convey thoughts) I wont digress to name-calling.

Izzy said...

Ellipses - you've hit the nail on the head! Yes, your ancestors may have been displaced, but MIGRATED & SETTLED, forming their own homeland, wherever that may be. The Jewish people, as history indicates, have NEVER been given the right to migrate & settle to form a homeland until 1948 when their sense of religion AND geo-polictical unity joined as one, a re-birth of their true desitiny & ambitions, dating back to ancient times. Denying a people their homeland because their geo-political ideals are intertwined with their religion is the heart of the beast known as anti-semitism.
Anonymous: Jews have been blessed, for whatever reason, with "Scychel", Yiddish for common sense, wisdom & good judgement. If it's all about the money, as you claim, it's all about the Jews ability to use their gift of Scychel. Jews also believe & practice "Tzedakah", justice or what is right. In the Torah, this term means piety, and a Jew cannot be considered pious unless they live a righteous & just life, which requires devotion to the needy. "It is better to give a to a deceiver than to risk depriving the deserving of relief." From our ancient beliefs and our Torah comes the basis of Chrisitianity & Islam. Put that in your pipe & smoke it!

Izzy said...

Suisun City: Had to comment on your handling of the sexual misconduct issue. It would be extremely naive to think that transgressions of this nature don't happen everywhere on this planet, but your retort to my asking for validity of the charges you made, "the fact is that you can't prove that I'm wrong", is weak enough to prove that I'm right in asking for proof. In instances as sensitive as these, my dear, we need to remember we are no longer at the playground, where sticks and stones can break your bones and your mother wears army boots.

Ellipses said...

Izzy... when my ancestors were displaced, they didn't all go to the same place...

A lot of jews settled in America... not a bad homeland, I'd say.

Izzy said...

Ellipses....yes, but they went someplace which they were able to call a homeland. As for Jews settling in America, no not a bad place, but still they were forced to choose a location, not the place that was their legitimate homeland. Get it?

Ellipses said...

Not really, Izzy... If some Anglos get forced out of Southern England by the Romans... some go north to Ireland, some go to Wales, some flee back over into Breton or Normandy or what is now Spain, Portugal or Germany... and then find a safe place and basically become a different people... they have adopted a new homeland... Should the whole of England be returned to the people who can trace their heritage back to before 1066 A.D.? I think the drive is less to do with "homeland" and more to do with laying claim to one of the most coveted regions on earth... You have a city that is sacred to the world's 3 dominant religions... It's not about some ancestral connection to a desert outpost... it's about not wanting to cede the wailing wall... it's about not wanting to have the Holy Sepulchre in the middle of an Arab country...

3 groups of people have a claim on a place that is fundamental to their religion... Imagine if we decided to install a Shaolin Nation on the land containing Mecca...

Everyone can trace their heritage through religious and racial lines... at some point, most people "settled"--- not in the immigrant sense of the word, but in their heart... Rather than fighting for centuries over some place where your people used to live, they decided that where they are NOW isn't that bad.

Of course, right now, where the Israelis are is in Israel... and where the Palestinians are is in a little, other part of Israel... So, the fight goes on.

Izzy said...

Ellipses - some good points, but without being overly repetative, Jews were forced out of their homeland, forced to "settle", and even forced to assimilate into their various "new" homes, with fear of retribution if they resisted. And please, please remember how many Jews were forced into places like Aushwitz & Buchenwald.....assimilation at that point was not an option.
I don't know how educated you are in Judiasm, but one of the basic tenets of the religion is to love your fellow man, treating all people with dignity, respect & honor. Israel belongs to the Jewish people & their beliefs; persuade the Palestinians, the Iranians, or anyone else of the Muslam faith to cease their incessant and irrational hate of our people. Then, and only then, will Israel function as a nation where all can live and worship in the fashion they choose. Our God does not command his followers to hate; let those whose theology allows them to disguise their piety under the blanket of hate receive what they deserve. This is why the fight goes on and, my friend, it saddens me deeply.

Suisun City, CA said...

Izzy-

You perpetuate the hate. Dont kid yourself!

When you die, your going to be accountable for your actions, without the protection of the USA and Israel. Just a human being, nothing more or less.

My Mother wore coal mining boots, mining at Bethlehem Mines in the late 70's-early 80's.

You are antagonistic and the unreasonable person. You push your agenda (the Jewish Lobby) and if others disagree, they are accused of being anti-Israeli.

I never made mention of religion. This is a humanitarian issue; being disguised as "typical Muslim terrorism" against the poor Jews.

Israel knows exactly what it is doing, and you can try to sugar coat it as "self-defense" all you want.

You mention "your God" as if he/she is different from anybody else. If you know so much about Islam and Muslim's (or Moslem, both correct spelling)you'll know there is only 1 god. Allah is the arabic translation for God. There is nothing sinister about the word.

Dont confuse yourself and others by your ignorance.

You seem to have a good idea who I am and what I stand for. Tell me Izzy, who am I?

Ellipses said...

Ooooh! Ooooh! Pick me Pick me!

Tiger Woods?

Suisun City, CA said...

Ellipses...LOL!

Tiger's Mom didnt have to work in the coal mine to support her 4 kids as a single parent.

Guess again? And thanks for the laugh! My heart feels like exploding. I wonder what I can do to make a difference? I feel like I'm banging my head all the time!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28555278/

This is my local community. This is how people are responding to injust in my area. This is 1 incident of abuse that outraged the community.

It's frightening!

Brant said...

Suisun,
You're not banging your head against the wall. I haven't had time to participate as much as I might like in this discussion, but I'm in your corner, 100 percent.

Izzy said...

Suisan City - I could care less who or what you are, and how dare you accuse of breeding hate! Shame on you! My arguments are valid & real. This "humanitarian" garbage that you love to float around is another disguise for anti-semitism. Agreed, innocents are being killed, but why not ask your Hamas buddies to stop attacking Israel? Plain & simple, as Israel has a right, as any nation does, to defend itself. Oh, and by the way "my God" doesn't think its ok to hate and kill people. Also, when I die, I won't be accoutable for anything. Who's going to judge me? Sui Sun Sue, the earth mother of all mankind. You're all a bunch of 21st century, misguided peackniks. When I attack your house with mortars, Ms. SUESUN, make sure you wave your white flag, so I can blow a hole through it. Get your facts straight, get off your white horse, and move somplace where the name can actually be spelled & pronounced. Try Schenectady, NY.
PS - I am a former SDS member, Ivy League graduate, & retired owner of a very successful packaging & design firm; my father quit school in 1923 to become a professional boxer and support his mother & 3 brothers.
nanny nanny boo boo to you, you whining tree hugger!

Suisun City, CA said...

Whatever you say Izzy...

Hope you feel better now!

If my perspective wasnt helpful to you, why not just agree to disagree?

You are the one who continues to get information wrong-even after being corrected.

You have a confidence in your "afterlife" that is troubling. Maybe you should be more concerned.

What's wrong with hoping that Peace will prevail? And are you trying to distract from the original post again by slamming then name of my city? Really lame...

For anyone reading, other than Tizzy, Suisun is an old Miwok Indian word for "West Winds". (It's pronounced Su-soon). I didnt name the city, I just live here.

PSS Frizzy-I could give a rat's ass who you "think" you are! I didnt ask and nobody cares. From your description- your an old fart who isnt going to change their position. How about you go away, and let the willing learn?

Have a blessed day!

Anonymous said...

Who you are Suison City is a douche bag.

Fog
The fog comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.

Up yours you moron.

You apparently have nothing other to do than argue.

#4

Izzy, proud to farting after all these years. said...

Sue son - For the record, YOU asked me who YOU were. Remember? As for my afterlife, as a practicing Reformed Jew, I am judged by God for my adherence to his covenant during my life on earth, which I attempt to live by on a daily basis. If I live my life in this manner, he bestows his blessings on me during my time on earth, and certainly not in the
form of providing me with winning lottery numbers or a shiny new car.
He wants me live as a Jew, by the rules he formulated which are simply to perform deeds of respect, love & charity towards my fellow man. If I act in this manner, I have pleased him during my walk through life, and that is the greatest blessing I can receive. I don't expect a ticket to heaven nor hell, for those are arenas to which I will not enter.
FYI - This "old fart" makes love to his wife of 22 yrs. almost daily, have all of my naturally curly blonde hair, have had my poetry published several times, and learn and will continue to learn about life's wonders and mysteries until my departure from this earth. Go away? Not on your wretched life, as that would leave this plantet to the spineless wimps like yourself, who would Neville Chamberlain our earth to smithereens with your credo of "appeacement" (I meant that spelling).
As we used the to say in the days of the horseless carriage -
"Power to the people".

To #4 - you have the balls of Superman, and the wit of Lenny Bruce. Right on, brother!

avraham5721 said...

Zionism 1)The unity of the Jewish people and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life:2)the ingathering of the Jewish people in it's historic homeland Eretz Israel through Aliyah from all countries:3)the strengthening of the State of Israel which is based on the Prophetic vision justice and peace:4)the preservation of the idenity of the Jewish People through the fostering of Jewish ans Hebrew education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values:5)the protection of Jewish rights EVERYWHERE!!!AM YISRAEL CHAI!!!Mecca & Medina for the muslims Jerusalem for the Jews,there never was a Palestinian people. my roots go back to the late 1700's in Israel and i am a Jewish American not an American Jew!!Jerusalem and Israel are not mentioned even once in the koran,Jerusalem is mentioned over 600 times in the Bible.read the Bible in Hebrew and then read the koran in Arameic you'll see where my Jewish people belong.see who says"love your neighbor as yourself"and who says"kill all the infidels" allah is an Egyptian moon god.study your Holy Books and your history if you want to take me on!!avraham5721

Suisun City, CA said...

Dearest Anonymous #4 and Dizzy,

You deserve eachother!

Both of you lack class and so much more...

I have an idea-

Hizzy, grab Superman's balls and make love until it falls off!

YOU both have made this serious discussion into something vile with your obnoxious and TOXIC comments.

If you dont have anything better to do with your time, keep posting idiotic comments. I'm sure the silent readers have already formed opinions about you both. Not only are you an old fart, but a dirty old man too!

And now we have another Rabbi commenting on his version of history.

I'm vaklempt, really!

Anonymous said...

What?

Like baby Bush you change the issue by changing the subject.

WTF?

S.M.E. said...

Wow, this is sure interesting to read from a third party point of view.

I have to say this:
People need to realize that there are Christian Palestinians being killed by Israelis, as well as the Muslims being slaughtered.

Allah is NOT an Egyptian moon god. I study Ancient Egyptian history, and have been to Egypt twice, so please check your facts before you say something ignorant like that, avraham5721.

Anonymous #4: Really? Saying "up yours" is sooo unoriginal, and very childish. At least be more original.

Suisun City: (First, please note the correct spelling), I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. You have been able to hold your own very well against (and I might as well name-call, since that's what others have stooped to) the ignorant idiots who really have no idea what is going on, besides what Fox news tells them, along with their bias. You yourself may be biased, but, as you said before, you made no mention of religion, and you never slandered other religions than what you may or may not practice. I think it is wonderful that you defend your beliefs, regardless of how vulgar others may get. And, yes, I did find your last post a tad bit vulgar, but at least it was funny.

Izzy: Nobody wants to know about your sex life, first of all. Secondly, this "debate," if you will, was never started with the intention of spewing any religious bullshit. I do have a religion, and I am proud of it, however, I do not going around talking about it, unless someone wants to hear it.

Hopefully this conflict in Gaza, along with the one here, will end peacefully. Civilians on either side should not have been killed, nor should the blood of so many people desecrate the Holy Land. This land has been fought over since the Crusades, and for many of the same reasons; religion, money, power, land. You would think that people would have learned by now.

Even if the conflict ends peaceably (I'm hoping for that, but highly doubt it), the scars of it will last forever. A conflict that has run this deep for this long, between two peoples, will never be forgotten. Not in any of our children’s' lifetimes, nor in any of the future generations. We can hope for a good resolve, but regardless, there will always be animosity between Palestinians and Israelis...

-S.M.E.

Stuart said...

suisun---there are also arab Israelis who have the same rights as any Israeli.they are even part of the government.voting rights and all.you spend way too much time here,you must have one boring life or you just need to get one.the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people..in fact the land of Hebron was bought by Avraham from the Hitties for 400 hundred pieces of silver Gen:23:14-20..it's a land contract.even the muslims call Avraham father through Hagar,so why did the palistinians vandelize the cave and why can't Jewish people go there, hey by the way have you ever read a book? you're useless and i'm out of here avraham5721

Izzy said...

SME - You can't have a discussion about conflicts in Israel without bringing religion into that discussion if you have knowledge of the history of the strife in that region. Spewing religious bullshit? It's unfortunate that Jews have to explain their beliefs to the ignorant SOB's that think we all have horns & carry pitchforks.

Suisun - You have a problem with a "Rabbi" leaving a post here? Say what you will about me, form your ill conceived opinions, insult & degrade me in any manner you choose. However, in all the comments being tossed about here, that is by far the most ignorant and offensive of all.
To the delight of many, (and there will most likely be some continued stabs), I bid you farewell, with these thoughts in mind:

"I am what I am and that's all that I am" - Popeye the Sailor

"Let it be" - John Lennon/Paul McCartney.

S.M.E. said...

I pulled myself away from my homework to post a comment, so I'm going to keep this short...
Izzy- I don't think all Jewish people have horns and carry pitchforks, first of all. I know some Jewish people, and we don't ever get into fights over religion or politics. Maybe this is proof that Muslims and Jews can coexist peacefully.

Secondly, I have a vast knowledge of the religious conflicts that have plagued the Gaza area. If talking about the modern conflicts, there should be some perspective taken into account. You know, the whole "separation of church and state" thing that Americans take for granted. This conflict is between the peoples of two different countries, not just two different religions.

I'll leave off with this:
"If you think that punk rock doesn't mix with politics, you're wrong." -Fat Mike from NOFX

P.S.: It also happens that Fat Mike is Jewish, but I don't care, I still listen to his music. So, please don't call me ignorant. You don't know anything about me, and I doubt you would have the mental capacity to see how stupid your assumptions about me are. Calling me a "SOB," I laugh at you.

Ellipses said...

Shoot, this one is getting close to the bottom of the page... Park, any way you can bump it up to the top?

Anonymous said...

Ellipses,

Glad your still with us reading this. It was getting quiet...

Ellipses said...

I nearly posted a veritable tome of a post today, but I have a lot of work to do... So, how about we steer this in a different direction?
Here is the assignement:

Do the Palestinians have a legitimate claim on the disputed lands?

In your response, do not use the following words:
Jew, Jews, Israel, Israeli, Israelite, Judaism, Jewish, Terror, Terrorist, Terrorism

Basically, present your answer without attacking the other side.

S.M.E. said...

Interesting assignment... I like a good challenge.

I'll formulate an answer and get back to you, Ellpises.

-S.M.E.

Anonymous said...

http://www.americantaskforce.org/resources/map_palestine

Anonymous said...

How about another idea?

Peaceful COEXISTENCE!

avraham said...

can i use ,iggnorant,murderous, hate teachers,Muslims, the koran,arabs,jordanian,hamas,hezzbullah,barbaric,blood thirsty,...AM YISRAEL CHAI !!!!!

Ellipses said...

Sure, why not?

Anonymous said...

Links for News information:

http://www.chomsky.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/0743285026

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7OJwdTVKheB22%2fgGFuOP41Us4DwhPvskC%2fKMHEvavoUBwzAgyJedsuN7Ip8n1Uxg%2bcZRE7bfNhZhgQOO3HTZHA1IBCC2OIM6JEJimdktUHEw%3d

http://www.americantaskforce.org/resources/map_palestine

S.M.E. said...

So, Ellipses, I'm gonna ask if I can cheat, then, and use the terms 'Zionist' or 'Zionism?'

At least I'm being respectful... I could also use the terms 'the butcher' or 'the assain' for Sharon...

Or hatemonger for you, avahram!

Ellipses said...

Awe geez... sure :-) Somebody just answer :-)

Suisun City, CA said...

Ellipses,

I have spent 5 days trying to be reasonable with people.

Responding to all of the nonsense would be a waste of my time.

My intention was to draw attention to this crisis and request people start paying more attention to the details.

I never asked for a religious debate.

I maintain this is a humanitarian issue.

PS Go Steelers!

Ellipses said...

Suisun,

That was kinda my point in framing the question as I did... We are never going to find a common ground when the debate is framed in the dichotomy of the absolutism of religion.

Fact: my religion is correct and its adherents are correct... therefore, your religion is wrong and therefore I am free to demonize its adherents.

So, can this conversation be had while wholly in the realm of the tangible? Can we present an argument that is actionable, reasonable, and does not succeed through the annihilation of a population?

Speaking of annihilation... go steelers!

S.M.E. said...

Wow, Ellipses, that totally went over my head... My 16 year old vocabulary is not quite that advanced just yet...

My thinking is this:
If you live on an island, among other people, and have a government set up, have an acknowledged status as a people, then what right does another people have to come in an claim part of your island? The people of the island were living harmoniously before they were invaded.

My point is: Things were good before the British Mandate was enacted. This was done because of the Holocaust, enacted by Hitler.

Maybe we should blame this whole thing on Hitler being rejected from Art School... I doubt WWII would have happened if Hitler remained a painter. ><

Yeah, go Steelers! Also, the Twilight DVD comes out March 21st!

Suisun City, CA said...

Ellipses,

Still there? I have a question...

Ellipses said...

Uh... I'm totally here for a few more minutes :-)

Suisun City said...

If you had experiences with a specific group of individuals, and thought they needed vocal support, what would you do?

Suisun City, CA said...

I've tried using this newspaper as a forum and platform; and was bitch slapped by my former High School's Prom Queen.

For some reason, she was compelled to disqualify any experiences I had abroad and accumulated over the past 18 years since moving from Washington.

I am tired of keeping quiet-

Ellipses said...

I would probably use every channel available to me to present my case in as compelling and rational way as possible.

That way, even those who disagree with me, but who are evenheaded and reasonable will be able to see my side of the equation.

By maintaining composure, and using my infinitely water tight and razor sharp intellect (:-)) I would systematically disassemble the opposition's case on the points that I found unreasonable.

At the same time, I would have to appear conciliatory on some points so that it didn't appear that I was unreasonably partisan on the matter. Give one, take two...

Emotional outpourings would have to be kept to a minimum in order to maximize their effect.

I'd probably answer a lot of questions with questions to muddy the waters...

why do you ask?

Ellipses said...

Oh... I see... well... trust me, it's always a thick fog to navigate when you hold an opinion that is contrary to the majority in a small town... You will never appeal to everyone... which makes the few that engage you rationally all that more valuable.

Suisun City, CA said...

Thank you!

Ellipses said...

I tried to be painfully honest by laying out my playbook :-)

lol

Stuart said...

hate monger? i've been called alot of things like kike dirty jew i went to school with swastikas and slang spray painted on my grade school,also on the family business. so i can be called names but i have to keep my mouth shut? the L-rd will judge in the end and i can account for my words and actions..can you?

Suisun City, CA said...

My conscience is clean and singing to me for all my good deeds!

My school experience entailed KKK rallys-

If you have a Jewish platform and feel like sharing, go for it.

I have a platform I feel passionate about too.

We can agree to disagree.

Just for the record-I never said anything hateful or hurtful. When I referred to you as a Rabbi, it shouldnt have been perceived as an insult, unless Rabbi's arent favorable to you!? I was merely addressing all of your religious history and ideology before closing my comment. Maybe I should have taken the extra minute to write out your name instead...

I will continue to read Park's blog daily. Until he asks me to stop contributing, I'll comment on subjects that evoke feelings from me or which I have some experience/perspective to share with others.

Have a blessed day and keep reading-

S.M.E. said...

Stuart- You're not the only one who has had to deal with something like that. When I was 11, I wore a headscarf to school, only to be threatened, and called a terrorist. I've dealt with having pork sandwiches thrown at me, among other things, and have stood by and listened when people who I knew called Muslims in general 'suiciders,' and 'terrorists.' To this day, I have to see ignorant people in school write on the Muslim Student Association posters 'bomb squad.'

I'm not saying my experiences were more traumatic than yours, but do you realizt that you're doing the EXACT SAME THING?! You say 'so i can be called names but i have to keep my mouth shut?' but do you notice that YOU are name calling? You are just perpetuating the hate by putting people of another culture/religion through the same shit you went through as a kid. I can account for my actions; I haven't lived long enough to really do anything I regret, but I HAVE lived long enough to voice the opinion of a people that is dying and being massacred. I HAVE experienced hate and ignorance. I HAVE to voice my opinion.

-S.M.E., the voice of the new generation.

avraham5721 said...

SME..i never called anyone any names,i know muslims and shop at stores owned by muslims.i treat people with the same respect they treat me..my ex knew a person from Germany and while at their house warming party there was a picture of a young man in an SS officers uniform..this woman treated me with much respect,how can i hold the actions of her father against her?Suisun,i'm a Shamash(Deacon) but thanks for the honor of calling me Rabbi.i'll be gone for a while so no responce is needed.i pray for the Peace of Jerusalem,and for all the people who hate someone just for their heritage,color,or who just hate in general.i'm commanded by my G-d to "love the L-rd my G-d with all my heart,soul and might and love my fellow man as my self"try it you might like it.it's been nice and may you all be blessed.like i said i'll be gone for a while so enjoy and i pray that some of what i said will help you hate the Jewish less.by the way i can trace my Biblical roots to the Tribe of Levi and the House of Aaron,so yes i can prove my family were slaves in Egypt.(just a side note but read Numbers 6:24 that's my life)Shalom!!!

Joe Friday said...

I've read these posts for the last several days, without comment; and it is apparent that the ideas being tossed about here have gone way astray of Mr. Burrough's oringinal comments. It is difficult to have discussions regarding the Isreali/Hamas situation without interjecting religion. Perhaps a forum at a later date with that subject in mind & may be appropriate, given the passions that various contributors possess on the subject.

Here is the common link, I hope that readers & contributors share,
and it is a cruel, but realistic
fact:

The deaths of innocent lives, in any situation, from a war to an automobile accident are shameful, wrong & and a pox upon joy of the human experience, regadless of who and why prpogated these deaths. Unfortunately, with the Israeli/Hamas issue, a prime example of an old addage rings true: violence begets violence.

Peace, among our species,
is a beautiful thing!